Time for 5 classes in xc
10/07/2015 6:55:04 PM
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Thoughts?
Thoughts?
10/07/2015 7:40:50 PM
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That or at least a restructuring with less teams at the top and more at the bottom like track.
That or at least a restructuring with less teams at the top and more at the bottom like track.
10/07/2015 8:08:09 PM
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@bantazmo Yes let's move Lafayette and Festus to Class 5.
@bantazmo Yes let's move Lafayette and Festus to Class 5.
10/07/2015 8:56:18 PM
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Or maybe start with the Top 16 marks in track and field (FAT) advance to state....not sure about 5 classes in XC...however restructuring our current 4 classes? Yes...
Or maybe start with the Top 16 marks in track and field (FAT) advance to state....not sure about 5 classes in XC...however restructuring our current 4 classes? Yes...
10/08/2015 2:31:36 AM
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What about having super districts or at least sectionals for classes 3 and 2?
What about having super districts or at least sectionals for classes 3 and 2?
10/08/2015 9:13:17 AM
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I’m always in favor of more classes in any sports. More classes mean schools closer to the same size are competing against each other which helps level the playing field.
I'm always in favor of more classes in any sports. More classes mean schools closer to the same size are competing against each other which helps level the playing field.
10/08/2015 9:36:46 AM
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[quote=bdavis]What about having super districts or at least sectionals for classes 3 and 2?[/quote] @bdavis I feel like we've been there before, haven't we coach? :) A coach can hope...
bdavis wrote:
What about having super districts or at least sectionals for classes 3 and 2?


@bdavis

I feel like we've been there before, haven't we coach? :) A coach can hope...
10/08/2015 9:37:57 AM
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Unless I'm mistaken, Dean Hays has suggested a real possibility of a restructuring with fewer teams at the Class 4 level. Dean, is that still something you think is likely?
Unless I'm mistaken, Dean Hays has suggested a real possibility of a restructuring with fewer teams at the Class 4 level. Dean, is that still something you think is likely?
10/08/2015 10:14:06 AM
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It is guaranteed, bet the farm, that Class 4 will have fewer schools next year. How that effects the lower levels is TBD. However, if Class 4 decreases the number of schools, it may also lose the sectional meet. That is not guaranteed and I would not bet on it. A logarithmic regression of enrollment versus average team time at the state meet shows that Ryan is right - to really create fairer competition, CC needs to go to five classes. The one mindset to get rid of are the basketball bracket numbers - 64, 96 or whatever. Remember, basketball brought us the wonderful jewelry rule. The top class should really have a bottom enrollment of 1600 and, this year, have only 46 schools. That is the point where the size of the school matters very little.
It is guaranteed, bet the farm, that Class 4 will have fewer schools next year. How that effects the lower levels is TBD.
However, if Class 4 decreases the number of schools, it may also lose the sectional meet. That is not guaranteed and I would not bet on it.
A logarithmic regression of enrollment versus average team time at the state meet shows that Ryan is right - to really create fairer competition, CC needs to go to five classes.
The one mindset to get rid of are the basketball bracket numbers - 64, 96 or whatever. Remember, basketball brought us the wonderful jewelry rule. The top class should really have a bottom enrollment of 1600 and, this year, have only 46 schools. That is the point where the size of the school matters very little.
10/08/2015 9:39:47 PM
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How many people on here think it is time for 5 classes in xc?
How many people on here think it is time for 5 classes in xc?
10/08/2015 10:47:36 PM
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I'm all for it.
I'm all for it.
10/08/2015 11:10:38 PM
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I am good with it...other sports went to five classes, so why not XC.
I am good with it...other sports went to five classes, so why not XC.
10/09/2015 8:05:54 AM
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I realize this is no reason to stop anything from happening, but I would be saddened by the possibility of losing West Plains as a State meet rival. I know they are close to the 3/4 cutoff now and I'm guessing they wouldn't be 5 in the new system. We respect Coach Dixon, Sandfort and their program so much and love the challenge of racing against them in November. Great competition often begets similar performances. Brian Gilmore SLUH
I realize this is no reason to stop anything from happening, but I would be saddened by the possibility of losing West Plains as a State meet rival. I know they are close to the 3/4 cutoff now and I'm guessing they wouldn't be 5 in the new system. We respect Coach Dixon, Sandfort and their program so much and love the challenge of racing against them in November. Great competition often begets similar performances.

Brian Gilmore
SLUH
10/09/2015 8:08:20 AM
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With the increase of smaller schools joining cross country, and many of them not fielding complete teams right away, it does create a competitive unbalance in the larger classes. The equation currently used, having a fairly equal number of schools in each class, does not lend itself to making the competition equal in each class! We would be in favor of five classes!
With the increase of smaller schools joining cross country, and many of them not fielding complete teams right away, it does create a competitive unbalance in the larger classes. The equation currently used, having a fairly equal number of schools in each class, does not lend itself to making the competition equal in each class! We would be in favor of five classes!
10/09/2015 8:28:16 AM
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@coach_gilmore Even if it stays 4 classes, and it has to unless a petition is done quickly, West Plains will not be in Class 4 under any new class system.
@coach_gilmore
Even if it stays 4 classes, and it has to unless a petition is done quickly, West Plains will not be in Class 4 under any new class system.
10/09/2015 9:59:49 AM
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What would be the proposed enrollment cutoffs if we were to restructure the current 4 classes vs creating a 5th class? Personally, I would want to see the proposed numbers first before deciding one way or another. Sean O'Connor Lafayette HS.
What would be the proposed enrollment cutoffs if we were to restructure the current 4 classes vs creating a 5th class? Personally, I would want to see the proposed numbers first before deciding one way or another.

Sean O'Connor
Lafayette HS.
10/09/2015 11:09:01 AM
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[quote=coach_gilmore]I realize this is no reason to stop anything from happening, but I would be saddened by the possibility of losing West Plains as a State meet rival. I know they are close to the 3/4 cutoff now and I'm guessing they wouldn't be 5 in the new system. We respect Coach Dixon, Sandfort and their program so much and love the challenge of racing against them in November. Great competition often begets similar performances. Brian Gilmore SLUH[/quote] @coach_gilmore This is a completely tongue in cheek reply. After seeing "McFarland", and reading a little about California's approach to high school cross country, I think there's a solution to the issue you have raised. California has some committee that can agree that a given school, regardless of its size, is "too competitive" to remain in the class it falls into by enrollment. A school with a long history of success can be arbitrarily moved up one class, two classes, three classes at the whim of this committee, as McFarland has been. So, if we follow California's lead we can put those candy striper shorts in any class we want. Taking my tongue out of my cheek, the respect and esteem for the Zizzer program reflected in Coach Gilmore's comments is well deserved and is felt across the state. If you want support for the idea that you don't have to have a willowy greyhound body to be a darn good XC runner, go to a meet where West Plains is running. Is it possible that reallocating schools within the four classes could approach equity as well as going to a fifth class? Does going to five classes and adding two races to the state meet move the start earlier or the end later? In a hot year, it may not be in the best interest of athletes to go later into the afternoon.
coach_gilmore wrote:
I realize this is no reason to stop anything from happening, but I would be saddened by the possibility of losing West Plains as a State meet rival. I know they are close to the 3/4 cutoff now and I'm guessing they wouldn't be 5 in the new system. We respect Coach Dixon, Sandfort and their program so much and love the challenge of racing against them in November. Great competition often begets similar performances.

Brian Gilmore
SLUH


@coach_gilmore

This is a completely tongue in cheek reply. After seeing "McFarland", and reading a little about California's approach to high school cross country, I think there's a solution to the issue you have raised. California has some committee that can agree that a given school, regardless of its size, is "too competitive" to remain in the class it falls into by enrollment. A school with a long history of success can be arbitrarily moved up one class, two classes, three classes at the whim of this committee, as McFarland has been. So, if we follow California's lead we can put those candy striper shorts in any class we want. Taking my tongue out of my cheek, the respect and esteem for the Zizzer program reflected in Coach Gilmore's comments is well deserved and is felt across the state. If you want support for the idea that you don't have to have a willowy greyhound body to be a darn good XC runner, go to a meet where West Plains is running. Is it possible that reallocating schools within the four classes could approach equity as well as going to a fifth class? Does going to five classes and adding two races to the state meet move the start earlier or the end later? In a hot year, it may not be in the best interest of athletes to go later into the afternoon.
10/09/2015 12:39:07 PM
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@bantazmo Being a newer Coach, how does the increase in small schools adding CC programs prompt the need to add a Class 5? The majority of CC runners also run the distance events in Track so my thought is one of at least consistency between the distance sports. Take Hillsboro High School and Farmington High School for example, in CC they are Class 4A and in Track & Field they are in Class 4A (essentially the same as CC Class 3A). Potentially, a him/her State Champion in CC and the same him/her a State Champion in the 1600m/3200m would not be competing against the same competition and may not be competing against the same level of competition.
@bantazmo

Being a newer Coach, how does the increase in small schools adding CC programs prompt the need to add a Class 5?

The majority of CC runners also run the distance events in Track so my thought is one of at least consistency between the distance sports.

Take Hillsboro High School and Farmington High School for example, in CC they are Class 4A and in Track & Field they are in Class 4A (essentially the same as CC Class 3A). Potentially, a him/her State Champion in CC and the same him/her a State Champion in the 1600m/3200m would not be competing against the same competition and may not be competing against the same level of competition.
10/09/2015 2:16:56 PM
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@seano7241 Depends on what the advisory committee proposes. If it is top 64 in Class 4 and the rest equal number of schools per class, then the new cutoff would be 1320 for the bottom of Class 4 (now 1031), 571 for the bottom of Class 3 (now 449)and 362 for the bottom of Class 2 (now 204). The bottom classes would all have around 112 schools each. Of note: the last time the bottom class cutoff was close to 362(374 in 1997 when there were only 3 classes) there was a total of 62 full teams at the boys district meet. Last year there were 107 full teams in the bottom two classes. Any other way you want to look at it?
@seano7241
Depends on what the advisory committee proposes. If it is top 64 in Class 4 and the rest equal number of schools per class, then the new cutoff would be 1320 for the bottom of Class 4 (now 1031), 571 for the bottom of Class 3 (now 449)and 362 for the bottom of Class 2 (now 204). The bottom classes would all have around 112 schools each.
Of note: the last time the bottom class cutoff was close to 362(374 in 1997 when there were only 3 classes) there was a total of 62 full teams at the boys district meet. Last year there were 107 full teams in the bottom two classes.
Any other way you want to look at it?
10/09/2015 2:29:31 PM
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I am saddened by this topic. As a teacher, a common complaint I hear is about how kids aren't pushed as hard as they used to be. That things are made too easy for them, and this hurts them in terms of developing a work ethic and character. We also as teachers complain about students trying to use their cell phones so often during class. (un-related) And yet, this debate of 5 classes keeps getting brought up from coaches. Coaches I respect. We want to push kids, but not when it gets to hard and WE think it is unfair. (We as teachers also are just as bad as the kids at getting our cell phones out during PD, which infuriates me to no end. My point is we complain about what kids are like and then do the same exact thing that we were just complaining about). I'm not saying 5 classes will ruin society and we will raise a bunch on lazy, no-good kids. I just don't get the reason. Having 1A schools that aren't able to run a full team causing other teams to move up a class is one thing. I am all for adjusting teams that are on the edge, although I just remember being at a school that was on the edge, moving down, and being extremely disappointed that we didn't get to compete in the larger class. I just don't see a big problem. It is hard for SLUH and Lafayette to make this argument because they are so successful, and people will just say that they don't understand. So I will make the argument for them. I do not see a big problem with getting to and competing at state for schools and the bottom of their class. All moving down does it make your school have the "unfair advantage" since any team that moves down will now be one of the biggest schools in their new class. I am extremely against 5 classes in cross country. I hope you are as well. Tim
I am saddened by this topic. As a teacher, a common complaint I hear is about how kids aren't pushed as hard as they used to be. That things are made too easy for them, and this hurts them in terms of developing a work ethic and character. We also as teachers complain about students trying to use their cell phones so often during class. (un-related)

And yet, this debate of 5 classes keeps getting brought up from coaches. Coaches I respect. We want to push kids, but not when it gets to hard and WE think it is unfair. (We as teachers also are just as bad as the kids at getting our cell phones out during PD, which infuriates me to no end. My point is we complain about what kids are like and then do the same exact thing that we were just complaining about). I'm not saying 5 classes will ruin society and we will raise a bunch on lazy, no-good kids. I just don't get the reason. Having 1A schools that aren't able to run a full team causing other teams to move up a class is one thing. I am all for adjusting teams that are on the edge, although I just remember being at a school that was on the edge, moving down, and being extremely disappointed that we didn't get to compete in the larger class.

I just don't see a big problem. It is hard for SLUH and Lafayette to make this argument because they are so successful, and people will just say that they don't understand. So I will make the argument for them. I do not see a big problem with getting to and competing at state for schools and the bottom of their class. All moving down does it make your school have the "unfair advantage" since any team that moves down will now be one of the biggest schools in their new class.

I am extremely against 5 classes in cross country. I hope you are as well.

Tim

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